Giving students a voice. Respecting the heart of teachers. What if this could really be done? A.B. Combs in Raleigh, NC did just that as they integrated Dr. Stephen Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People into their school culture. Then, when Dr. Covey wrote about them in The 8th Habit, it became one of the most visited schools according to then Principal, Muriel Summers.
Muriel coauthored The Leader in Me and now has a new book Teacher Believed in Me. Muriel tells the story of how a struggling principal and single mom in a struggling school believed in what their school could be and it made all of their lives better and the school became a success story that the world stood up and noticed.
Today is the perfect story for a Motivational Monday as so many of us head back to school. Thank you for making the 10 Minute Teacher a show that you listen to on the way to school. I hope this story encourages you like it does me. I was even shocked how they involve students in the hiring process! (Five year olds learn how to interview – ok, before you get upset, take a moment to hear what she’s saying. They aren’t literally hiring but the story is amazing!)
From the minute she stepped into the classroom, Muriel Summers has always viewed teaching as a calling. As a principal, she twice guided her school, A.B. Combs Elementary in Raleigh, North Carolina, to being named the top magnet school of America. The school also became the original leadership school featured in FranklinCovey’s Leader in Me. The vision and strategies she and her remarkable staff developed are now being replicated in over 8,000 schools and more than seventy countries. She bears the honor of having received several awards, including teacher of the year, principal of the year, and an honorary doctorate. She was awarded the William and Ida Friday award for Leadership in Innovation, The Order of the Long Leaf Pine given by the Governor of North Carolina (the state’s highest honor given to a North Carolinian), the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Award for Leadership in Education, and the Ralph Kimmel Award, North Carolina’s highest honor for principals. She now serves as the Global Ambassador for the Leader in Me and keynotes at conferences across the US and abroad.
I’ve been doing some research for free resources that you can use in your school now. I would start by reading the books that I linked above (if you haven’t already>)
Who this is for: whole-faculty meetings, grade-level teams, leadership teams, and new-teacher induction. How to run it: After your team listens to the show, these questions come from what Muriel actually described, not from a template. As I shared on the show, we should make our “to be” list before we make our “to do” list. These activities can help you look at your school now at the beginning of the year as you decide how you can make things better.
Muriel’s assistant principal, Michael Armstrong, used to ask one question about the building: Can you feel it? She says you don’t need long in a school to know what it’s about.
Before A.B. Combs redesigned itself, they asked parents, students, teachers, professors, and local business leaders one question: if you could create your ideal school, what would it look like, sound like, and feel like? The answers surprised them. Teachers wanted students who respected them and a place where they had a voice. Students wanted teachers who loved them. Business leaders said they could teach someone of average intelligence to succeed in their organization, but they could not teach trustworthiness or collaboration. Parents wanted a teacher who knew their child’s story and could see gifts beyond academics.
Muriel says discipline dropped almost immediately once every child had a role and their genius was recognized, because children wanted to come and wanted to be part of it. Note the scope: every child, not the reliable handful.
At A.B. Combs, candidates were interviewed by children — some as young as five, taught how to interview rather than left to wing it, with an adult in the room to listen and debrief afterward, not to feed them lines. The students didn’t decide who got hired, but their voice counted. Muriel says teachers consistently called the student interview the hardest one. In twenty years she overruled the children once: a candidate with an MBA and a systems-thinking background the students admired but said “doesn’t get kids.” He lasted until November.
When I was at Georgia Tech, I was on a “hiring feedback panel” for the Director of External Affairs. We gave feedback on the candidates. It was a great hire and a person who really connected with students and faculty. We gave feedback but didn’t make the final call.
Now, again, as I said at the end of the show I mentioned something my mother always said: you have to create your to-be list before you create your to-do list. There are an overwhelming number of things you could do. If you don’t know what you want to be, you have no way to choose the right one. Muriel says something similar in her own words: don’t get caught up in the whirlwind of the things that matter least.
The simplest thing in this episode is something to discuss. Above the doors at A.B. Combs, where children saw them getting off the bus every morning, were the words: you are seen, you are known, and you are loved. Teachers were outside greeting children by name with music playing. What are the words you want students and visitors to see as they enter. What are the words you want them to see?
If Muriel’s story gave you something to carry into this school year, share it with the teacher down the hall who is rebuilding their culture right now.
This transcript was generated using AI and has been reviewed by humans for accuracy. Minor errors or artifacts may remain but I worked my best to find any issues with the transcript as I reviewed the show. – Vicki
Vicki Davis (00:00): How a school built its culture around the seven habits for highly effective people, and the academics followed. This is episode 965. Happy Motivational Monday.
Announcer (00:13): This is the 10-Minute Teacher Podcast with your host, Vicki Davis.
Vicki Davis (00:17): Today, we’re talking with Muriel Summers. She’s a principal who took a struggling Title I elementary school, A.B. Combs in Raleigh, North Carolina, and turned it into one of the most visited schools in the world by asking a question many of us need to be asking. What if every child could be a leader? Muriel is now FranklinCovey’s Global Ambassador, co-author of the newly updated A Leader in Me, and also the new book Teacher Believed in Me with David K. Hatch.
Muriel, you said that leadership isn’t a title or a personality trait. It’s a set of habits that can be taught. Take us back to 1999, your first year at A.B. Combs. What did you see that made you bet the whole school on that idea?
Muriel Summers (01:13): Vicki, first of all, I am a big fan and quite honored to be part of this this morning. I’m reminded that through incredible challenge often comes wonderful opportunity. And I think if there was a quote that captured that first year for me as a principal, it would be that. I really didn’t even know what I was doing.
I had so longed to be a principal for a while, and that was my goal. The way this story goes is that several people applied to be the principal of A.B. Combs. When they did their homework, whatever their reason, they withdrew their names. I was the fifth person interviewed for this job, and I was the one who did not, embarrassingly enough, do my homework as much as I should have.
But nonetheless, I know now that I was given one of the greatest professional gifts of my lifetime to go in with like-minded, amazing educators with a belief that we could do something extraordinary. We approached our challenge of reinventing ourselves. And how were we going to do that? And the charge was that it could not be a theme like any other school.
It could not be like any other magnet school. And we wouldn’t have a lot of money in which to make it happen. So that was the charge before us, and I had just heard Dr. Covey speak in Washington, D.C. I was listening with the head of an administrator that had been issued this incredible challenge, but also the heart of a single mother of two small children.
How was I going to make all of this happen? So as I listened to Dr. Covey speak, I wondered if I had learned these habits much earlier in my life, how different my life might have been. And that was one question swirling around. And then the second question was, I wonder if you could teach leadership to young children.
So I listened to him and I was quite emotional, Vicki. I was quite emotional thinking about my own future, thinking about what my vision was. Habit number two, begin with the end in mind. Thinking how am I going to be proactive and use my time effectively when I had so many things juggling in the air.
But learning these habits gave me my toolkit to navigate a school and to navigate my life and to navigate my role as a mother, a friend, and all the other roles that we play. So I hear him speak. I go back to the school, and I’m like, we’ve got to reinvent ourselves. We don’t have much time.
I’ve just heard Covey speak. Do you think we can teach these habits? Now, mind you, Vicki, there was no framework for us to follow as educators. We read his book.
We read Sean Covey’s book, which I will lovingly and admiringly say that it’s the cliff notes of his father’s book. So it really related to our teachers in a way that they could take what Sean had written and pull any book off a shelf and find a way to teach these habits.
Vicki Davis (04:23): So you’re talking about seven habits for highly effective people, and I’m assuming seven habits for highly effective people for teens, right?
Muriel Summers (04:29): That’s exactly right. So we called in our parents, our students, our teachers, university professors, because we are like three miles from NC State University, 20 miles from UNC Chapel Hill. We asked the question, if you could create your ideal school. What would it look like, sound like, and feel like?
And we gathered all that feedback. Teachers wanted students that respected them. They wanted to work in an environment where they had a voice. Students wanted teachers who loved them.
Now, mind you, this was an elementary school. Business leaders were looking for a skill set quite different than an academic skill set. The comments that were made was, We can teach someone with average intelligence how to be successful in our organization, but we can’t teach them how to be trustworthy. We can’t teach them how to be collaborative.
We can’t teach them how to embrace diversity if it isn’t a part of who they are. Then parents, we just want a teacher who knows our child. We want them to know their child’s story. We want them to see their gifts beyond academics.
We took those seven habits, Vicki, and we aligned it with all that feedback, and it screamed leadership to us. So we just went to work. This is a philosophy. It’s not a program.
One of our core paradigms, our core beliefs, that every child has genius. So we went about creating a culture where children had roles and responsibilities, where their genius was recognized. We saw discipline go down almost instantly because children wanted to come to school and they wanted to be a part. So we started referring to everybody as a leader, Vicki.
And guess what? We not only viewed them that way, we also gave them opportunities to lead. So when you’ve got a culture of everyone is leading, everyone is important, everyone’s voice matters, everyone has genius. You don’t have to worry about the academics.
They just happen. But we fixed the culture, and we created a culture of leadership for all. And we went from one of the lowest performing to one of the highest performing. Everyone was working from the inside out to become all that we thought individually we could become.
And equally as important to create a school that every child wanted to come to that would leave a lasting impact.
Vicki Davis (07:05): Take me on a verbal tour. Tell me what I would see from morning to when school ends, the types of things that students or teachers might be doing, and also your role.
Muriel Summers (07:17): We had an incredible assistant principal whose name was Michael Armstrong, and he died at a very early age of 40. But Michael left a lasting impact, and he would always say, can you feel it? So the moment you would walk in the building, we wanted people to feel something. And Vicki, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
You don’t have to be in a school very long, just a few minutes, to know what that school is about, about what you see, what you hear, and what you feel. When the children entered the building, there were big words right above the doors. So when they got off that bus, these were the words that they saw. And I feel like I’m going to get emotional, but you are seen, you are known.
And you are loved. And when they got off that bus, they would hear happy music playing. Teachers would be out greeting the children as they got off the bus, calling them by name was a requirement. You know every child’s name.
They would call them by name, always modeling. We model what we expect to see our children do. So they would walk, hear that fun music, hear their name being said. We’re so happy you’re here.
They’d walk up the steps, they’d look at those words. You are seen, you are known, you are loved. They’d walk in to the building. There was always someone standing there to greet them.
I helped to get children out of the cars so I could see the parents. And so everyone was in the hallway. Children would go to their classroom and they were greeted. Social etiquette, big part of what we taught as well.
They would either high five, shake the hand, do a little dance, do whatever. So that that first connection with their teacher was being made that day. The walls were required to teach and to reflect our students’ genius. I always had some challenges with our fire marshals because when we had an art show, there were 900 pieces of art on the wall because every child had their art displayed because we wanted our children to see themselves as leaders in art, leaders in music, leaders in public speaking based on their genius and based on their passion.
My favorite teacher, Miss Rose. So much of Miss Rose is embedded in the culture of A.B. Combs. She told us every day it mattered not where we came from. What mattered was the size of our dreams and our hopes for our own future.
And we were the sons and daughters of cotton workers and mill workers and cotton farmers in rural North Carolina. So much of what is in the classrooms today becomes a reflection of each teacher’s favorite teacher. So we wanted the school to reflect leadership. I know you’re a collector of quotes.
There are a lot of quotes throughout the building. But they’re not just words, Vicki. We take our children several times during the year on a field trip throughout the school to say, what does this mean to you? What do you want this to look like?
The school is very much child-centered based on what children have said they wanted and also what we wanted the walls to teach. You will see the Seven Habits Tree in the building. You will see photographs of great leaders. That it’s very important to us that we put role models, great examples of great leaders in front of our students.
And whether we find that on the news or in a sports arena or in a piece of great literature, we’re always pointing out the characteristics of great leaders. The morning begins with a morning meeting. So every child is having a voice and a say. And those meetings are very powerful.
They’re as important as instruction as far as I’m concerned because they set the tone. And then every afternoon, we conclude with doing an evaluation on how we did in our classrooms. What went well? What are the opportunities for improvement tomorrow?
And the teacher stands in the doorway as each child leaves and tells him to have a great night. And that’s exactly what Miss Rose did. She would say, how am I going to make it to the next day without you? How am I going to make it through the night?
Because I’m going to miss you so much. And you know what, Vicki, we believed her. We believed she was going to miss us. And we loved her to pieces.
And the impact that one lady had on the lives of so many, your teacher, you as a teacher, and I hope. Me as a teacher, I hope I left a little bit of my heart in every child that I taught. I hope I leave a little bit of myself with them. Yeah.
Vicki Davis (12:13): Take me back to when you would have a new teacher start at your school. What did you say?
Muriel Summers (12:18): Well, before they were ever hired, students assisted me in the hiring process. And what I mean by that is a teacher jumped through several hoops to be a teacher at Combs. And one of those hoops was the administrators reviewing the file and saying, this person looks like they could be a good match. Then we brought children in and we never asked children, Vicki.
We taught them how to interview someone as young as five years old. Children know what they’re looking for in a teacher. We let them loose. Now, there was always an adult in the room with the children who were interviewing the teacher.
But the adult’s job was not to tell the children what to say, but to listen so that we could debrief afterwards and say, this is what you did well. Children, in essence, were learning how to interview as they interviewed a teacher. And children would ask the most amazing questions, Vicki, questions that we never thought about asking. And the teachers that we were interviewing would always say the student interview was by far the hardest.
They were not responsible for determining if a person got hired or not. But their voice mattered. And it mattered to us. There was only one time, Vicki, in all the 20 years that children were part of interviewing, did I go against what the children said?
It was like they were looking for the same things we were looking for. But this was a gentleman who had a degree from a local university. He had this business background of systems thinking, and I was so intrigued by it. No matter how good you are, continuous improvement, how do you get better?
Vicki Davis (14:05): He had that. Sharpen the saw, right?
Muriel Summers (14:07): Exactly. But he had a business skill set that I didn’t have, and I thought how valuable he would be on our team. So he had majored in business, an MBA degree in business, but had always wanted to be a teacher, or so he thought he did. The children said he’s very smart so he’s a genius he’s a leader in intelligence because they picked up on this man was very smart, but we don’t think he gets kids.
And I’m like, tell me more. We just don’t think he gets what kids are about. I thought, well, they’re gonna learn to like him, and I need him, and we’re gonna hire him. He lasted until November.
Vicki Davis (14:47): Oh, my goodness. So the kids were right.
Muriel Summers (14:49): The kids were right. Dr. Covey would say, a little child shall lead us. And I think that was really the fabric of everything. Let our children lead.
Let them have a voice.
Vicki Davis (15:04): What are some things I can bring to my classroom tomorrow?
Muriel Summers (15:09): There are over 8,500 schools in over 60 countries around the world that are teaching the same thing that we started at A.B. Combs. So there is that framework. But this leader in me and teacher believed in me go hand in hand, teacher believed in me, because we wanted to give homage to great teachers. What do great teachers do differently?
So that quote, never underestimate what a committed group of people can do, because, indeed, it’s what has changed the world. And I do think in a very small way, A.B. Combs has changed the world in terms of what schools should look like, sound like, and feel like based on the hearts of teachers and the hopes and dreams of children. If I can do it, Vicki, anybody can do it. Not to get caught up in the whirlwind, of those things that matter least.
But let us stay focused on what matters most. And to me, it’s just love them. Just love the teachers, love the children enough that you will give your very best to help them all succeed.
Vicki Davis (16:26): My mom, who was a great teacher and my closest mentor and who loved the seven habits, um, Always said, you’ve got to create your to-be list before you create your to-do list. Because the things you do, they’re just an overwhelming number of things that you could do. But if you don’t know what you want to be, you have no ability to determine the right thing to do. We’ve been talking with Muriel Summers.
She’s a principal who took a struggling Title I elementary school, A.B. Combs in Raleigh, North Carolina. She has an updated book of The Leader in Me, a new book, Teacher Believed in Me. Muriel, thank you so much for coming on the show, for coming.
Muriel Summers (17:13): Vicki, thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Vicki Davis (17:18): Thanks for tuning in to the 10-Minute Teacher Podcast. Watch the video version of this podcast and catch my new radio and TV show, Cool Cat Teacher Talk, on YouTube and a radio or TV station near you. Join my Cool Cat Teacher Classroom Matters newsletter at coolcatteacher.com forward slash newsletter. Leave a review if you found this helpful.
See you later, educator.
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