Terry: Fascinating. What other changes are you picking up on?
Steve: Whereas college used to be really the be all and end all of K–12 education—you know, the requisite, “That’s our goal. Get my child into college and everything will be better.”—parents now have a lot more questions about the value of a college education because of the money. Partly, it’s the return on investment. What do you get out of it? Is it a skill, a profession? That’s number one. Number two, what about the student debt that you’re saddled with for the rest of your life? Is it worth it? Parents also worry about their kids going to colleges that teach their children things that are against their values. In Idaho, I have heard parents tell me they are traditional Christian parents, and they really worry about what their kids will be exposed to in college. But mostly I think it’s the cost and doubts about whether there is a value add in a college education today.
Terry: Might it just be that they want their kids to learn skills and be able to get a job that pays the bills so they can raise a family and have a decent life?
Steve: That’s a very good question, because the other thing I was going to say is the whole notion of learning a trade and technical education has risen especially since the pandemic. People also see it in their lives. Look at the guys out there building those buildings. The big difference is that middle class parents used to say, when I first started working in Idaho over a decade ago, “That’s great. You know, the technical trades are great.” And then I said, “Well, is that what you want for your child?” Parents would respond, “No, no, no. I want my child to go to college. Everybody else can go to trade school.” But today, I believe that’s shifted. The colleges have also shot themselves a little bit in the foot by letting kids waste time and earn degrees that are largely worthless in a practical sense. Americans are very pragmatic and practical people. I think that’s one of their great strengths.
Terry: I agree with that. If it doesn’t seem to work, why keep doing it?
Steve: Sure, but the college pathway still works for some people. We did a couple of studies in Idaho with Hispanic parents. And part of what we learned is, first of all, they love Idaho, which is amazing. They’ve experienced prejudice, but they love Idaho. They wouldn’t trade it for the world. I’m just generalizing now. Obviously, there’s a lot of diversity within the Hispanic community, but whereas the first generation never finished high school, they really are insistent that their kids finish high school. And if your child finished high school, you want your child to go on to college. I interviewed some Hispanic parents and one of them said to me, “I took my son to work on the roof. I wanted to show him what it’s like to work hard.” And he’s saying to me, “This is what’s waiting for you. You want it, it’s there. But if you want to do a little better, you want to be a little more comfortable in life, finish your schooling.”
Terry: Over the last decade you’ve talked to hundreds of people across Idaho about education and schools. What are the three to five essentials they think our schools should have?
Steve: Parents in Idaho want their children to go to a school where they see respect and an orderly environment. And when they see a school that’s out of control, a classroom that’s out of control, it doesn’t work for them. The other one I have heard every time I talk to parents is class size. Parents say, “How can you teach 30 kids? It should be more like 15. It’s so much easier to manage a classroom with fewer kids.”
Terry: That’s interesting in that there is little evidence class-size reduction does anything to improve student performance. It just drives up costs. Where do you see other disconnects between parents and their attitudes and what education research might tell us?
Steve: One of the things I’ve seen over and over is how little regard parents have on a collective basis for test scores. They don’t really look at standardized test scores. A minority does. A highly engaged kind of critical consumer segment of parents look at test scores. They evaluate where the teachers are from. Those are usually parents who have bounced around a lot and are comparing schools. But if you’re in a community and don’t move, most people do not look up their school’s test scores or compare them to other schools in the state. Most parents—and this is true in our Idaho experience—have accepted what’s given by their schools.
Terry: I hear parents say they want more choice, and lawmakers in Idaho have given them a lot of school choice. The governor just signed a law that offers parents a $5,000 tax credit for private schools. How much do you think that will impact family decisions in Idaho?
Steve: For working parents, $5,000 is a big amount. I think most parents will look twice and think about it if they know about the opportunity. It will take a while for this to have an impact that educators will feel, but it might.
Terry: Now, is it push or pull? I mean, is it because they’re leaving what they think is a place that isn’t working for them, or it’s because, “Oh gosh, this is such a great opportunity, I have to jump at it.”?
Steve: I think for a lot parents, teachers that care and schools that are respectful and safe are crucial, and they often feel like they don’t get that in a regular district school. So they have to hold their noses, and there’s a lot of people who would switch out of their schools if they think they can. I believe public educators are right to be worried. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s beyond the capacity of traditional schools to create respectful schools where teachers care about kids and deliver quality learning opportunities.
Terry: What advice would you give to our public schools to help ensure that they stay relevant, vibrant places that parents want their kids to go to?
Steve: Number one, make sure that the schools are safe and comfortable places for kids and their families. It’s not a militarized situation that parents are looking for. Orderliness is a better word maybe. It’s a productive place. Kids are doing work rather than horsing around and throwing things at each other all the time. That’s number one. Schools can do that. Teachers need to communicate authentically with parents. I say authentically, even though I hate the word. It’s a very trendy word, but it is appropriate in this context. There’s 5,000 ways to reach parents now. Cell phones, texts, emails, online platforms, right? But what a parent would love to hear is if their child is struggling, they’d love a phone call from the teacher who knows and cares about their child. That’s communication. It’s not something that you just check off. Communication is so important, and the teachers can do this. Teach in a way that engages the kids.
Terry: I think we got the school side of this—what schools should know and what we should be advocating for when it comes to schools—which is important because we do a lot of things with schools. What advice would you give a young couple who just had a child, and they’re starting their journey as parents?
Steve: First of all, reading. Reading and a love of books is the most important gift you can give a child. It opens up the world to them. It makes them comfortable with the language. I learned how to speak English by reading it. Expose your children to books early and read to them. And let them tell stories. Discover the joy. So that’s at home—just the respect and love of books and learning. As your child gets older, pay attention and talk to teachers, because a teacher will tell you the truth about the schools if you get friendly with them. And I would look at test scores. Most parents don’t. Most parents are not critical consumers.
Terry: Do you think schools are honest with parents most of the time?
Steve: I think they try, but it’s hard. I don’t think schools tell parents enough that they have responsibilities if they want their kids to do well in school. As a result, schools take on more and more social responsibilities that were not theirs to begin with. And they can’t do it. They’re not good at it, because schools are to a degree political institutions. Schools take on more responsibilities that belong to the parents, and then they say we don’t have enough money. Well, of course you don’t have the money. You can’t to do it all, and frankly they shouldn’t.
Terry: Does it take courage to tell a parent you have some obligations, you have some responsibilities?
Steve: Schools are afraid to have those conversations now. Schools and school districts have become very fearful institutions. They are wary of causing ripples, of saying, “I don’t think you’re doing a good job with your child.” They’re very fearful of calling in authorities when that needs to happen. They’re very cautious. The schools are taking on more and more, and it does create a lack of honesty. And they’re afraid of lawsuits. A lot of schools end up being in a defensive posture, kind of like a goalie. Your job becomes purely defensive, and you’re worried about being attacked. You’re besieged all the time by forces that can be activated.
